I sat down in a local Starbuck’s with Abby Dees, the author of Queer Questions, Straight Talk, a book which works to bring people together to talk frankly about what it means to be gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender. The book offers " 108 frank & progressive questions it’s OK to ask your lesbian, gay or bisexual loved one". Abby is a civil rights attorney who doesn’t feel that writing this book is that far removed from the issues she dealt with in her legal practice. Communication is a critical element for her in the legal world, as it is when trying to come to terms with the confusion that can arise when a loved one comes out to those around them.
The book is filled with humor as well as guidance on how to deal with what can be a very delicate and, at times, intrusive entry into a person’s personal life. But communication is the key to moving beyond the stereotypes that invade our daily lives. It’s through communication that we will find our way through this current maze of misunderstandings and misinformation. Abby wants to help us open up to each other and share our experiences, which can allow us to conquer prejudice and injustice.
Abby and I had a great discussion about the book and the current state of LGBT rights in America…
CHRIS JARVIS: So how do you go from being a civil rights attorney to writing this book?
ABBY DEES: It’s not that different. The last thing I was doing was working with HIV positive inmates, helping them get access to medical care and programs and services. Very often they’d call me up and I could see that there was a legal problem, but the solution wasn’t always a legal solution. Really, the first solution was communication. And there was a moment when I was working and I realized, you know, 75% of what I do is talk to people about how to tell their story, and how to find the right person to talk to and how to articulate what you’re experiencing and what you’re feeling. So it’s actually not that big a leap. And on this issue there’s a great divide, and the only way to fix that divide, to transcend that divide, is to start talking to each other, and it’s hard to know where to start sometimes.
CJ: Yes, and I love the quote from the book, "Silence keeps people apart". That really struck me, because so many people don’t talk about things, and I’m one of those people who likes to talk about everything.
AD: Right. So the point of this book is to sort of give people permission to talk. It’s a small guidebook on how to talk about this stuff. There’s permission to ask stupid questions, and really, there are no stupid questions if you need to know the answer. And you don’t have to answer if you’re not ready to answer or if it is too personal a question. And from our community’s standpoint I think it’s very easy for us to feel exhausted when we do hear the same questions over and over.
CJ: An example of that kind of question is in your book, and we all still get it from time to time, "Who’s the man and who’s the woman?"
AD: That question is a good opportunity to talk about bigger issues. It’s a good opportunity to talk about gender, and how sexual orientation and gender are different and how they’re related.
CJ: Don’t you think that’s one of the biggest misunderstandings right now, the issue of gender? I have to admit that until about 3 or 4 years ago I didn’t understand much about the issue of being transgender. Then I watched the documentary "Middle Sexes", narrated by Gore Vidal, and it answered so many questions for me.
AD: That kind of reminds me of a story I’d sort of forgotten about. Around 2000 I was at a conference and I was walking around and stopped in front of an organization known as Gender PAC, which I don’t think exists anymore, that advocates for transgender people. Somehow I got up the courage to speak to Ricki Wilkins, who’s now a very famous activist, and I said, I don’t know anything about transgender issues, I wish I could ask some questions. And she said, "Shoot, ask me anything you want, I won’t get mad at you."
CJ: I’ve felt the same way. And I think there’s fear among gays and lesbians in approaching the subject because I think in some way we feel we should automatically understand.
AD: Right. But I was so grateful to her for to be willing to sit there and listen to me. It just blew my mind and I never forgot that. And that kind of approach is what I tried to put in the book. A lot of these questions are personal questions, and you need to make sure it’s okay before you ask them, and in the book I try to give some guidance on how to approach the situation.
CJ: One of the things I really like about the book is you have lists of all these questions, but you don’t provide the answers. So many books give you some prescribed answer but this is written in a way that will help start up a conversation.
AD: And it’s tempting for me to throw in my opinions, and I do have a clear agenda. I want people to get over the barriers that lie between us because I think understanding will foster tolerance. And we don’t all agree on the answers to these questions. I’d bet that 90% of us don’t think sexuality is a choice, but maybe 10% do.
CJ: One of the things I’ve found interesting throughout the whole legal same sex marriage debate, is when an LGBT person will say they don’t think it should necessarily become legal because they personally don’t want to get married. It’s strange that I have to point out that the point is not whether they personally would marry, but that all Americans have the right available to them.
AD: Right, we’re not a monolithic group. So the questions format of the book was very much designed to open up a conversation, let go a little control. Whatever your experience is, you’re the expert. And there are questions you may not know the answer to, but you can talk it over together.
CJ: You say in the book that "Coming out is a journey more than a single act". In other words just coming out of the closet doesn’t mean that you won’t have to deal with that many more times throughout your lifetime. My husband is more open in public than I tend to be. I’m more guarded, particularly in a conservative city like Fresno.
AD: But you know what? There’s wisdom in both of those choices. There’s reasons for both of those positions.
CJ: Why do you think that heterosexuals so often look at LGBT people from a purely sexual point of view, as opposed to the whole of our relationships?
AD: I think sex sells. We’re all curious about "what’s going on over there". I just think it’s human nature. But that’s where the conversation allows you to back up a little and say, you know, it’s bigger than that. You see so many straight people grappling to understand, when the answer is, we’re just like you.
CJ: How do you think LGBT people should deal with it when they hear, "I don’t care what you do, just keep it behind closed doors"?
AD: And we’ve all heard that one. You know, it’s disrespectful to ask someone not to be who they are. Treat people how you want to be treated. How would you feel if I asked you to not flaunt your heterosexuality in front of me? And what would that mean? If you’re a woman you couldn’t talk about your husband, things like that.
CJ: How do you feel about the current trend to "non-identify". You know, when people say, I don’t want to be labeled, sexuality is a fluid thing. With young people, who use that a lot now, I guess I’m not sure if it’s experimentation, or in a way, denial.
AD: I like things that challenge me, that make me go, how do I deal with that? And that’s one of those things. Because it triggers that little part of me that says, oh come on, how do you identify, it makes me think there’s something to it. So I actually think that if that’s where we’re going, if we’re going to a place where we don’t have to worry about who we are and who we love, because no one else really worries about it, I think it bodes well. Young people are much more comfortable with it, and I’m not sure if it’s experimentation or just freedom. I do fear that if we go there too fast, while the rest of the world is labeling people as heterosexual or aberrant, then I think it’s important to remind the world who we are.
CJ: I guess I come from the place, since I’m 48 years old, that I come from the place where labeling yourself was a political act, something to further the goal of equal rights. So when you don’t label yourself, those of us who had to are thinking, come one, we could use your help.
AD: Right, we think you’re not taking a stand. But I think the young people I’ve met who don’t want to be labeled are taking a stand. I don’t think they care what you call them, they just want you to get it right. I saw something on Good Morning America recently…
Abby reminds me of the old riddle that’s been around for decades and was and is used by people to study the answers and reactions of those listening to the story. Basically it goes like this…A father and son are out driving and are involved in a car accident. The father dies and the son is rushed to the hospital for surgery. But the surgeon, upon seeing the boy on the operating table, says "I cannot operate on this boy, he’s my son." Who is the surgeon?
AD: The answer is, the surgeon is the boy’s mother. But because of the gender issues we face, most people wouldn’t get it right. So they repeated the experiment on Good Morning America recently and what was interesting is that many more kids immediately jumped to, it’s his mother. Still, some of them didn’t, but what was also interesting was that a lot of them said, oh, it’s his other dad. And the reporter would say, you mean like a step-dad? And the kids would say, no, gay dads. It’s a sign this is becoming normal, so when young people are saying, what’s the big deal? I think that’s really hopeful.
CJ: Well, let’s talk about that. Ever since I was a kid, I’ve always heard…not just on this issue but a lot of issues, that when the older generation dies off and the younger generation comes in, things will change. We now see that the change as far as LGBT rights hasn’t changed much and in fact, we’ve lost ground in a lot of ways. So either I’m not understanding just how long that means it will take or something else is going on.
AD: I struggle with that too. In my opinion, I wonder if the reason we’re seeing this retreat, although we are seeing both, is the economics of the time. I think this is the worst economic time we’ve had since the depression, and nothing beats the depression. But I wonder if when economics get bad that people start closing in and moving back to their fundamental roots. There are always going to people going in the other direction, but I think the general tide is moving forward.
CJ: You talk in the book about Gaydar, and how finely tuned you thought yours was until you went to Amsterdam.
From the book…Then I went to Amsterdam. There, I quickly discovered that my criteria for conclusively identifying whether someone was gay as a Golden Girls Fanfest lined up nearly identically with the general physical description of a Dutch person. Spiky platinum ‘do and funky bohemian glasses? Lesbian…or Dutch. Sculpted cheekbones, "manpris" (capris for men), and leather messenger bag? Gay…or Dutch
Kind of on that topic, why do you think the United States is falling behind so many other countries on the issue of LGBT Civil Rights?
AD: In some ways we’re really ahead. On things like free speech and freedom of religion, even though we’re really struggling right now, we do have a mastery of that. But on this issue, I think maybe it’s the flip side of how idealistic we are, and how we do come from this sort of "dream" vision of ourselves, and if you don’t fit into the dream vision then you’re a threat. While in Europe they can almost be cynical in their vision of who they are, which can translate into a sort of common sense approach, like, oh well, what are you going to do, you just have to be practical. That makes civil rights easier to deal with. We have an imagination about who we are that I don’t think I’ve seen anywhere else.
CJ: Another thing I find kind of frustrating is when younger people say, it’s just around the corner, meaning they believe that no matter how much struggle we’re going through for civil rights, that it’s, of course, going to happen any minute. For those of us who are older and have been hearing that for decades, it’s hard.
AD: I had a friend who taught political science to college kids, and they would talk about the civil rights movement of the 1960’s. She would ask them what they thought brought that into being, and so often they would say time, and it kind of drove her nuts. She would say time is not a causation. Time doesn’t make things happen on its own. Time is in the background and people are moving and pushing. It’s people that make change. The civil rights movement didn’t happen just because it was time for it to happen.
CJ: On page 59 of your book there’s a question that might be posed by a heterosexual person to a homosexual person. It says, "Don’t some of your LesBiGay (a term Abby uses in the book to encompass the community) rights step on my own right to live according to my personal beliefs?" Why do you think so many Americans who would classify themselves as "patriotic" then take a stand that restricts the equal civil rights of others?
AD: I think a lot of people don’t understand what civil rights really means. Your civil rights stop when you’re stepping on someone else’s civil rights. You don’t have a right to be free of seeing me and my partner kiss goodbye. There is nothing in the constitution that covers your right not to be annoyed. Civil rights are always a balancing act. Free speech rights always bump up against other people’s right to feel safe.
CJ: The current situation with Fred Phelps protesting at funerals is exactly the kind of thing we’re talking about.
AD: That’s a really interesting legal issue. He does have a right to stand there and do that unless he is causing general disruption. The response to Fred Phelps is not to put a muzzle on him but to respond to him. Civil rights are difficult, they take work, you have to tend to them.
CJ: And that’s the thing about a free country, it’s not always an easy way to live. You’re absolutely right, and I say this to people all the time, you don’t have the constitutional right to not be offended. You don’t have the right to have your surroundings shaped into your vision when you step out of your front door. That’s one of the prices of living in a free country.
AD: Exactly. The same rights that I’ll afford Fred Phelps are the rights I want when I need to stand up and say something. It’s the bottom line.
CJ: Let me ask you about the Prop 8 court case. Judge Walker made his decision and now it’s headed to the 9th Circuit. What do you think is going to happen. As I understand it, in order for the appeal to stand up it has to be pretty rock solid, which it clearly isn’t.
AD: Yeah, I don’t think they have a very strong legal position. Everyone who touches this case, starting with Judge Walker and now the 9th Circuit, are being scrupulously aware of not overstepping. When it was going through Judge Walker’s court, some people thought he was gathering too much , sort of unrelated evidence, that he was letting too much that was irrelevant. But he was aware that was doing this possibly for all time, and he wanted to make sure he erred on the side of caution. He was allowing the whole conversation to take place. And I think the 9th Circuit, by granting the stay until at least December, is kind of doing the same thing. They also made a very explicit instruction to the Yes on 8 people to show why they had legal standing to appeal this case. That’s going to be the most interesting thing for me. Schwarzenegger and Brown have washed their hands of this, and it is quite possible that there is going to be nobody else at that party. The downside, if they don’t have standing to appeal, as far as I understand this, that this particular case dies, which means Prop 8 dies in California, which is good, but the case doesn’t make it to the Supreme Court.
CJ: Do you think if they won an appeal and it went to the Supreme Court, that they’d even choose to hear it?
AD: Boy, you know, they avoid really, really hot topics. When you have a situation when the states are truly divided, which we have now, that can sometimes force them to look at a case.
CJ: Okay, let’s end this on a lighter note. What the hell is "Lesbian Bed Death"? (one of the questions in the book)
AD: You really don’t know?
CJ: I don’t. And my husband doesn’t know.
AD: See, here you are, acting out the book. I put it in the book, basically saying you could ask me that question. Lesbian Bed Death is what happens shortly after you’ve gotten together and all the romance has faded…
CJ: Oh, you mean, marriage.
AD: Exactly.
CJ: Well, I thought I would ask you some of the more silly, stereotypical questions from the book. So tell me, why do so many gay men love Cher, Midler and Streisand.
AD: Well, here I am as a lesbian, speaking for all gay men. I think it’s because they’re rule breakers, and survivors, with an aura of this fabulous, I don’t give a damn what you think.
CJ: I think you’re absolutely right about that. Why do lesbians remain friends with their exes?
AD: Because we’re women.
CJ: That was my answer too!
AD: You know the last party I went to it was mostly gay men and it was really confusing who had been with who, so guys have their own version of it. We’re women. We don’t want to let go, we want to bring everything together. We’re community builders, however misguided it might be.
CJ: Okay, this may be offensive, but I’m trying to stick with stereotypes here, why do lesbians have a bad sense of humor?
AD: Oh, you just don’t get our jokes. No, it’s true. I have come across moments when I want to say, oh honey, lighten up, this is funny. But then you have women like Kate Clinton. So it’s a stereotype.
CJ: I can’t argue with that. I love Kate Clinton, she’s brilliant. Okay, why are gay men more witty than straight men?
AD: I think they’re not as self conscious about their masculinity.
I recommend the book highly. I was able to get it the same day from our local Barnes & Noble bookstore in River Park. It’s time we started talking to each other more. This book can help you do that.
